Freeview: Sutton Coldfield (Birmingham, England) full-Freeview transmitter
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Freeview on the Sutton Coldfield (Birmingham, England) transmitter

Google StreetviewGoogle mapBing mapGoogle Earth52.600,-1.835 or 52°36'1"N 1°50'5"WB75 5JJ

Transmitter fauls and engineering works

SUTTON COLDFIELD transmitter - Over the next week Sutton Coldfield main transmitter: TV (digital) working normally, Radio (analogue) Possible weak signal, Radio (digital) working normally. Digital tick
Want to better understand the current TV faults? See the all new UK Free TV page


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The symbol shows the location of the Sutton Coldfield transmitter which serves 1,870,000 homes.

Other maps:Sutton Coldfield DABSutton Coldfield AM/FMSutton Coldfield regionBBC West MidlandsCentral (West micro region)

Radiation patterns

Radiation patterns withheld

Map key

The bright green areas shown where the signal from this transmitter is strong, dark green areas are poorer signals. Those parts shown in yellow may have interference on the same frequency from other masts.

Sutton Coldfield transmitter Freeview broadcasts

If you have any kind of Freeview fault, follow this Freeview reset procedure first.

Digital television services are broadcast on a multiplexes (or Mux) where many stations occupy a single broadcast frequency, as shown below. The rating shown takes in account the output power level and the various Freeview transmission modes and do not indicate an ongoing fault.

MuxEffective power level, aerial positionRatingModeWatts
PSB1
BBCA
 horizontal
Maximum64QAM 8K 2/3
24.1Mb/s
DVB-T MPEG2		200,000
Channel icons
1 BBC One West Midlands, 2 BBC Two England, 7 BBC Three, 9 BBC Four, 70 CBBC Channel, 71 CBeebies, 80 BBC News, 81 BBC Parliament, 301 301, plus 12 others
• as a digital multiplex transmitted on frequency C43 (650.0MHz) from 433m datum.
PSB2
D3+4
 horizontal
Maximum64QAM 8K 2/3
24.1Mb/s
DVB-T MPEG2		200,000
Channel icons
3 ITV (Central (West micro region)), 4 Channel 4 Midlands ads, 5 Channel 5 Part Network ads, 6 ITV 2, 13 Channel 4+1 Midlands ads, 14 More 4, 28 E4, 33 ITV +1 (Central west),
• as a digital multiplex transmitted on frequency C46 (674.0MHz) from 433m datum.
PSB3
BBCB
 horizontal
Maximum256QAM 32KE 2/3
40.2Mb/s
DVB-T2 MPEG4		200,000
Channel icons
101 BBC One HD (England no regional news), 102 BBC Two HD (England), 103 ITV HD (ITV Central West), 104 Channel 4 HD Midlands ads, plus 1 others
• as a digital multiplex transmitted on frequency C40+ (626.2MHz) from 433m datum.
COM4
SDN
 horizontal
Maximum64QAM 8K 3/4
27.1Mb/s
DVB-T MPEG2		200,000
Channel icons
10 ITV 3, 20 G.O.L.D. (not free), 25 Dave ja vu, 26 Home (not free), 27 ITV 2 +1, 30 5*, 31 5USA, 34 ESPN UK (not free), 38 Quest, 39 The Zone, 44 Channel 5 +1, 72 CITV, plus 22 others
• as a digital multiplex transmitted on frequency C42 (642.0MHz) from 433m datum.
COM5
ArqA
 horizontal
Maximum64QAM 8K 3/4
27.1Mb/s
DVB-T MPEG2		200,000
Channel icons
 TV News,  TV Stars, 11 PICK TV, 12 Dave, 17 Really, 29 E4+1, 32 Movie Mix, 46 Challenge, 48 Food Network, 82 Sky News, 87 Community Channel, plus 9 others
• as a digital multiplex transmitted on frequency C45 (666.0MHz) from 403m datum.
COM6
ArqB
 horizontal
Maximum64QAM 8K 3/4
27.1Mb/s
DVB-T MPEG2		200,000
Channel icons
15 Film 4, 18 4Music, 19 Yesterday, 21 VIVA, 24 ITV 4, 41 Sky Sports 1 (not free), 42 Sky Sports 2 (not free), 47 4seven, 83 Al Jazeera English, 85 RT English , plus 21 others
• as a digital multiplex transmitted on frequency C39+ (618.2MHz) from 433m datum.


Regional news from the Sutton Coldfield transmitter


BBC Midlands Today 2.9m homes 10.9%
from Birmingham B1 1RF, 15km south-southwest
to BBC West Midlands region - 66 masts.

ITV Central News 2.6m homes 9.9%
from Birmingham B1 2JT, 15km south-southwest
to ITV Central (West) region - 46 masts.

Self-help relays

Burton (shobnall)Transposer1 km W Burton-on-Trent60 homes
CoalvilleTransposer18 km NW Leicester600 homes
SolihullTransposerLand Rover building400 homes

How the transmission frequencies change over time

years1950s~851984-971997-981998-20112011-132013-182013-18
aerial groupVHFB EB EEB E KB E KW
C4BBCtv
600C33com7
C35com8
C39+ArqB+ArqB+ArqB
C40BBC2BBC2BBC2+BBCB+BBCB+BBCB
C41+1
C42SDNSDNSDN
C43ITVITVITVBBCABBCABBCA
C44+2
C45ArqAArqAArqA
C46BBC1BBC1BBC1D3+4D3+4D3+4
C47+A
700C50C4C4C4
C51+Blocal
C52+C
C55D

orange background for multiplexes names moregreen background for transmission frequencieslilac background for power levels in watts800MHz band: 4G mobile to start in 2013700MHz band: possible 4G in 2019 more600MHz band: new or moved digital TV services more
Notes: + and - denote 166kHz offset; aerial group are shown as A B C/D E K W
Italics for analogue, digital switchover was Wednesdays 7th September and 21st September 2011.

  • Ofcom have projected that a local television service for Birmingham including Greater Birmingham area, part of Wolverhampton, Walsall, Dudley could use an Interleaved Frequency on the Sutton Coldfield transmitter using C51
  • COM7, COM8 projected for 2013-16. COM7 and COM8 to operate as Bromsgrove,Sutton Coldfield, The Wrekin SFN.

Comparison of old analogue and current digital signal levels

Analogue 1-4 1000kW
SDN, ARQA, ARQB, com7, com8, BBCA, D3+4, BBCB(-7dB) 200kW
Mux 1*, Mux 2*, Mux A*, Mux B*, Mux C*, Mux D*(-21dB) 8kW

History of Channel 3 in the Sutton Coldfield transmitter area

• Breakfast ◊ Weekends ♦ Friday night and weekends † Weekdays only. Sutton Coldfield was not an original Channel 3 VHF 405-line mast: the historical information shown is the details of the company responsible for the transmitter when it began transmitting Channel 3.


Your comments: most recent posts are at the bottom

firstFirst comments prevEarlier comments  ◊  Later commentsnext Latest commentslast

Your comments are always welcome. Please use the form below to add your thoughts or questions to this page. We will get back to you as soon as we can.

Mike Dimmick
Wednesday 21 September 2011 8:44AM
Iain: See Freeview reception has changed? | ukfree.tv - independent free digital TV advice .
brian walker
Wednesday 21 September 2011 8:46AM
Bradford eccleshill no signal from some channels even after retune 3 times this morning BBC 1 no signal months of irritation to get a picture that does not break up thinking wrongly it will be right after 21st September HOW WRONG! GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER ENGINEERS
Mike Dimmick
Wednesday 21 September 2011 8:47AM
Ryan: That assumes you have a box where the signal quality is calculated as percentage of data received without errors, after all error correction. Most boxes do. Unfortunately that makes it a completely useless stat, because it cannot tell you how far away from break-up it is. It will only go below 100% when it's already starting to break up!
Mike Dimmick
Wednesday 21 September 2011 8:49AM
brian walker: Please provide a full postcode. Note that many relays are still off-air as they had to wait for work at the main mast to be complete, the last is actually not scheduled to complete until 4pm as it relies on four intermediate hops.
GT
Wednesday 21 September 2011 9:31AM
Good signals from SC now, but getting duplicate MUXA(8k) on UHF ch62. Ae points north. Any idea where this is coming from?
Viv Denham
Wednesday 21 September 2011 9:47AM
I am trying to view Freeview on a WinTV TV Stick on my laptop. However, since switchover, I can only receive 23 channels, with those on 650.0 frequency showing "No Signal" and only those on the 618.2 frequency giving a picture.

I am on the Sutton Coldfield transmitter, and before switchover I could receive 76 channels from 4 frequencies: 634, 714, 722 and 746 MHz. However, I could only get pictures from 746MHz. All the others showed as "No Signal" on screen.

Doing a scan of the channels, it would appear that the Signal Strenth for both of today's frequencies is -21000 and the Signal Quality is 19% and 20% respectively.

Is there anything I can do to improve the Signal Quality?

Many thanks for any help you could give me.
gpc1
Wednesday 21 September 2011 10:14AM
can you confirm that the awitchover process is complete .

I have a 6 year old channel master aerial (yellow } i belive group b .I have always had a perfect reception
retuned this morning normally i only see 100 % on signal.This morning 60% and even 50 % on the odd channel
i appear to have all channels but citv was breaking up and blocking ,
not a problem i have had before .


please advise
Neil
Wednesday 21 September 2011 10:37AM
I Cannot get BBC channels from Sutton Coldfield transmitter in Stoke areas.
One box stopped working at last change now the other is doing the same.
Grundig and Thomson set top boxes
gbhall
Wednesday 21 September 2011 10:44AM
After clear all channels and manual tune of channels 43,39,46,42,45 in that order, I have all expected channels, but a few programmes are not on the EPG numbers expected. For example, program 24 (supposed to be ITV4) is not assigned at all, and ITV4 actually shows up on 797 !!!

My box is a Nokia 221T

Is there any possible way to avoid this?
Neil
Wednesday 21 September 2011 10:54AM
Thomson box working ok now but grundig died may be worth trying a retune for other people with problems.
Steve
Wednesday 21 September 2011 11:05AM
I retuned this morning, living near Abbots Bromley and I have missing channels. You know, I just knew this was not going to work for me and I can't see the HD channels. To clarify, I have 2 3D TV's with HD receivers as I know that will be the first question, yes, they can receive, decode AND play HD channels. I was waiting for this day and at the back of mind I just felt it would not work :(

Worked fine before most of the time, now i see ZERO improvement.
Billy
Wednesday 21 September 2011 11:07AM
Bob, no, this is the great con you see, relays won't get it, was not commercially viable for them, as usual cost, money talks.
Why you think having spent £50 on a top up TV box, can not get it from Allesley Park, in fact, with no HD, only get as you rightly said 20 channels, for those, older people say, never had channel 5 even, it's heaven, for those with freesat, it's DIRE, big time.

My tests now show, even with rain, I can in the loft at 24 miles away get Lark Stoke, signal strength 80% and quality 100%, hardly any play up, where as there is on my pole one to Waltham.
So next week, when Lark Stoke switches to channels 41 and 44 and 47 I'll do final testing and then take my Log Periodic 22 element with 25 db gain amp down and put in loft.

So my suggestion is, if you want more and you really can not get Sutton, try others:
Mounting A Terrestrial TV Aerial In The UK - 3 Aerial Alignment Calculator (with internet mapping)

Or go freesat, but do not give up, like I said, for some 4 to 20, wow, for others, what the heck, no way, only 20, if I in a huge dip can get two other options, then I know you Bob can also surely experiment a bit and see if you can also get some other main transmitting stations.
Good luck.
Finally a reminder to those that got it before and now can not, likely, the signal now is too strong, see else where on this site or google for it, try: overload when freeview power increased, should bring up some thing for you.
Neil
Wednesday 21 September 2011 11:14AM
I retuned this morning missing BBC Channels.
Retuned at 11:10 channels back may be worth another retune now steve.
Neil
Wednesday 21 September 2011 11:15AM
I retuned this morning missing BBC Channels.
Retuned at 11:10 channels back may be worth another retune now steve.
Steve
Wednesday 21 September 2011 11:26AM
Hi Neil,

Nah, still can't get the HD channels, even when trying to manual tune. I am off to try the other 3 TV's to ensure its not device limited, but the TV I am using is a fully HD compliant TV, with HD receiver. I select manual tune to the frequency above at get zero channels on this TV....

:(
Steve
Wednesday 21 September 2011 11:36AM
What I struggle to understand is how I was able to get all of the channels from Sutton Coldfield prior to the power up and now they have put the power I seem to get less and still don't get the HD channels?
Steve
Wednesday 21 September 2011 11:50AM
All my TV's and boxes are the same, zero HD channels. I seem to be seeing all of the other channels, just not HD. Now I have an internal arial, which as I said has worked perfectly pretty much for years and has provided all of the channels available, any pointers?
Neil
Wednesday 21 September 2011 12:05PM
Sry Steve I havnt got HD boxes here so cannot check for you.
With the problems with the normal channels it may be that they are not up and running yet?
I cannot say if it is a aerial problem has I don't think they are using any new aerial type for the HD signals.
There may be some software updates for your TVs at some time in the future?
With you saying you have HD TVs I assume you don't need HD cables?
pabwell
Wednesday 21 September 2011 12:05PM Leicester
The first retune 2 weeks ago was fine. Today, after ten attempts, I either get no channels at all or just 10 channels (no BBC). Should I just keep trying?
christina
Wednesday 21 September 2011 12:09PM Rugby
Hi - last night I noticed we had lost some channels, inc ITV, 4 & 5. When I take the re-tune option the freeview box only seems to start re-tuning from channel 21 - it never did that before switch over. I'm lost as what to do?
CarlH
Wednesday 21 September 2011 12:19PM Coventry
Christina:

Your box is probably retuning starting at UHF channel 21, not the actual digital channel number 21, which are in fact two separate things. Just let the retune run through as normal and see if you have any missing channels afterwards.
Steve
Wednesday 21 September 2011 12:27PM
Carl, my box is only searching digital as that is the option I chose and I don't get all channels either...
Neil
Wednesday 21 September 2011 12:27PM
Steve!
you could try a factory reset.
Or retune without the aerial to get a clear channel list then retune to get new channels.

www.ukfree.tv link icon My Freeview box has no EPG, is blank on FIVE, ITV3, ITV4, ITV2+1, has no sound or the channel line up is wrong | ukfree.tv - independent free digital TV advice

Steve
Wednesday 21 September 2011 12:33PM
Neil I've done the factory reset thingy, nothing improved but wil have a look at the other route. Cheers.
Steve
Wednesday 21 September 2011 12:42PM
Nope that didn't work either, why is this really so challenging. OK, so I have duplicate channels, what are the chances that my arial is pointed towards the wrong transmitter?

I seem to also be channels down compared to where I was pre-power up, makes no sense this does it.
Brian Grogan
Wednesday 21 September 2011 12:45PM
I cannot get any of the channels on ArqB. Live right in centre of sutton coldfield. Had no problems after last retune but my box only finds 5 of the 6 mux on rescan. Its a really new box . I live in flats with a communal aerial so an upgrade is not practical. Any ideas?
paul hadley
Wednesday 21 September 2011 12:52PM
I live in redditch post code b966ph. before sept 21st switch over i had 70% - 71% signal strength on all channels. now I only have 60% All publicity said that the signal strength would be 20 odd times stronger. I have caried out the resets ie power off and scan without tv signal to no avail. any ideas ??
Dennis
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:00PM
Steve,if you have an internal aerial how do you even know it's pointed at Sutton Coldfield.
Try a manual tune on rf channel 40,that is where you will find the Sutton Coldfield HD multiplex.
Steve
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:00PM
Annoyed with the hole thing, will give it the next 24 hours then I shall call a man, get the entire system from arial to outputs, to devices out.
Steve
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:01PM
Dennis I've done that and I am finding zero channels, which is what let me to wonder if I am actually pointing at the correct transmitter, though I am pretty positive when it was installed it was aimed at Sutton.
Neil
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:07PM
mm ideas ive run out of apart from wait and see if it goes better on its own or.

digitaluk.co.uk

The site gives the freefone number 08456 50 50 50.

The Freeview address is:
Freeview,
DTV Services Ltd,
27-29 Cursitor Street
London
EC4A 1LT


uk.answers.yahoo.com link icon I cant find the number to contact freeview? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers (EC4A 1LT)
Billy
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:12PM
NOTE NOTE NOTE ********************
Trying to make it stand out, sorry.

Those people not getting channels they used to, may now have over load, massive increase in power.
Many over the years have had hi gain aerials and amplifiers and boosters and not been told that at switch over, with power increased it can be too much, too much can be as bad as too little.

Attenuator is what is likely now needed from places like Maplins.

ALSO Note, just because you have an HD TV does not mean the freeview it comes with is also HD, so likely some, many will find only 20 channels if on a relay.
Those on main transmitter like Sutton, once all this is sorted, should be fine.

Problems arise when on transmitters like Waltham, where BBC booms in on channel 61, but 57 not so, difference in 50,000 to 25,000 kws.

To be seems a right mess up, but there you go.

Alternatives:

If you know what you are doing, and perhaps cheaper than attenuators, though won't lose a lot, try adding connections and cables etc. This may also help, remove any boosters, so on.

I hope that helps.
With so many posting now, and not checking previous posts this might be missed, vital info, cause many of you are going to be upset, on finding suddenly what you had before you no longer have while others struggling now get them all solid.
Dennis
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:13PM
If you can find what RF channels your TV gets it should be possible to find out what transmitter it is tuned to.

Content from Sutton Coldfield,will now be on RF channels 39/40/42/43/45/46 sorry if you already know this.
Have to say though,you would better with an outside,aerial if you can,SC is a fair way from you.

Steve
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:20PM
I've phoned a man, be here 9am tomorrow, got bored.
Steve
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:22PM
Oh and thanks to those that helped!
Dennis
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:22PM
Ok Steve good luck with it,you have nice TVs so you may as well get the best out of them.
Let us know how you get on.
Briantist
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:41PM
Steve: General point - you MUST have Freeview HD ("DVB-T2") equipment to receive Freeview HD.

A "HD Ready" set, even if has built in Freeview ("DVB-T") will not even see the HD services.

See www.ukfree.tv link icon What does "Full HD Ready" actually mean? | ukfree.tv - independent free digital TV advice please.
John Townson
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:46PM Bewdley
i have just tried retuning my bt vision and tv but all i get is bbc channels, no itv, 4 + 5.

any ideas anyone? I live in Bewdley
Ryan
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:48PM
Thanks for the info Mike.

I notice on DigitalUK's site, Sutton Coldfield is deemed to have a poor signal, and there are no available channels. :|

I assume that's some kind of error, right?
Ryan
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:51PM
Sorry, ignore that post above. I was checking for a friend what transmitter he is on, and from his end Sutton Coldfield isn't deemed a good transmitter to go on.

For me, it's deemed good. :D
Dennis
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:52PM
John without looking into it,maybe your getting a relay,that has not switched yet,it will have done by mid afternoon I understand.

So try a re-scan,a little later.
John Townson
Wednesday 21 September 2011 1:58PM Bewdley
cheers dennis, that could be it, as we are serviced by kidderminster which i believe is a relay from sutton.
SteveL
Wednesday 21 September 2011 2:17PM
I live in North Wales, nr Llangollen, and today for the first time I have been able to get ITV4 & Yesterday (Sutton Coldfield). However, this is only on one out of 5 TVs/digital boxes.
It looks they are not capable of the sub frequencies (eg 618.2MHz). Certainly when scanning they show 618.00MHz, 619.00MHz, etc. I can't manually enter a frequency.
Does that sound a likely cause?
Briantist
Wednesday 21 September 2011 2:45PM
SteveL: All Freeview boxes can deal with the +/- 166kHz offsets, but most do not show them. I can't say more about your reception without a full postcode.
Briantist
Wednesday 21 September 2011 2:46PM
Billy: Yes, there is a whole page about that at Freeview signals: too much of a good thing is bad for you | ukfree.tv - independent free digital TV advice .
Briantist
Wednesday 21 September 2011 2:52PM
christina: C21 is the lowest broadcast channel in the UK, and C68 is the highest, your box will scan between C21 and C68.

These are *NOT* the "local channel numbers" such as 1 for BBC One.
Billy
Wednesday 21 September 2011 3:02PM Coventry
Brian my friend, risk getting all technical, as I do believe it or not, not know everything, lol, unless read and learned etc, or shown, which I prefer to be honest, anyway, question:
I've read, but hard finding much info in google, always subject to what you type in, but with Lark Stokes Commercial channels going on the 40's how much lose would that be, so for argument sake:

channel 21 with a gain of 21db will on channel 41 have only 20 db.

I know Aerials compensate for this, but remember I'm keen once I move it into the loft next Wed all being well, to use my new Log Periodic, with only 7.5 db gain and 25 max variable amp.

I know you likely will say not that simple, also tried to find comparison with the db/uv or whatever it is, to the db gain, so for example:

60 db/uv equals 21 db gain

Thanks.
Briantist
Wednesday 21 September 2011 3:11PM
Billy: I'm not really sure what you are trying to get at, you seem to be mixing together lots of different concepts.
Billy
Wednesday 21 September 2011 3:40PM
LOL, sorry, that's me for you.

Err not sure how to explain, as frequencies go higher, I'm away they have more loss, hence CB rig at 27 mhz, great conditions on 4 watts can go miles and miles, base station to base station up high can cover, gosh, 20 or 30 miles, who knows.

But TV at that, LOL, no way, so they transmit often at hundreds or thousands of watts, why, because as the frequency climbs it loses more.

Thing is, we see TV Aerial compensate for this:
www.aerialsandtv.com link icon Gain (curves), Again

However, if you have a log periodic aerial, they are pretty much flat.

Just because I'm getting channels 23 and 26 at 80 to 100% does not assume I'll get channel 47 from Lark Stoke.

So my question is, do you know of a loss factor, again for example:

Channel 21 at say 20db
channel 41 would be at 18 db
channel 61 at 16 db.

Meaning I'd need 2 db more again on an amp to get the same as I did on channels 23.

I hope that helps.

Also on the other, some talk in, as on my useless meter I bought db/uv, looks like a u, likely not, says 60 poor 70 and 80 okay and the last light 90 Excellent, measures in db/uv so 60 to 80, say 45 to 50 min level for Digital.
But when we talk about Amps, it is mostly in 15 to 25 db gain.
Was one site gave me an idea, showing both, but not 100% sure that means, you know, like some table.

All confusing I know, cause depends on circumstances, aerial in or out, how close you are to a transmitter, and what height aerial and obstacles and Amplifier and oh gosh, you know..... (CV59HG)
Billy
Wednesday 21 September 2011 3:45PM
Actually, found this again:
www.megalithia.com link icon Field Strength Calculator

So it shows 110 (dBuV) at 47 but 113 at channel 23, so nothing in it and way high, but as it states, take about 10 to 20 off:

Note that your results will be of the order of 10-20dB lower than this predicts. To get the signal strength predicted by this calculator your antenna must be several metres higher than surrounding obstructions, house roofs etc and have a clear line of sight to the transmitter. Most domestic installations do not satisfy these requirements, hence assume at least 10dB lower signal levels.

I still think I'll be more than okay and shall see in weeks time.
Thanks anyway Brian, ignore me again, crack on helping others with the change over issues. (CV59HG)
Neil
Wednesday 21 September 2011 3:48PM
Before switch over in the Stoke on Trent area I used to get lvl 10 signal strength with two TVs connected on one aerial now Iam only getting 6 sig strength so the signal is definately a lot weaker.

This seams to cause the Digi boxes not to tune in as required especially the BBC channels.

If other people have more than one TV connected together I would suggest removing even the aerial wire to the other TV as the signal strength is not "more" as they lead us to believe. (It is a lot weaker and fluctuating in quality).
Sid
Wednesday 21 September 2011 4:08PM
John Townson:

Kidderminster Transmitter which serves Bewdley/Stourport etc is classed as FREEVIEW LITE. This means it only has two multiplexes plus the HD One. These are 49/58/and 54 (HD).

Regards



Please post a question, answer or commentIf you have Freeview reception problems before posting a question your must first do this Freeview reset procedure then see: Freeview reception has changed, Single frequency interference, and Freeview intermittent interference.

If you have no satellite signal, see Sky Digibox says 'No Signal' or 'Technical fault'

If you have other problems, please provide a full (not partial) postcode (or preferably enter it in box at the top right) and indicate where if aerial is on the roof, in the loft or elsewhere.

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