Full Freeview on the Winter Hill (Bolton, England) transmitter

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Mike Dimmick
Friday 3 June 2011 4:45PM

May: At 32km distance from a very high-power transmitter, it's quite likely that your problem is due to too much signal. If you have an amplifier, try removing it.

Another possibility is that even though your aerial points to Winter Hill, it picks up enough signal from the Pendle Forest transmitter for the box to detect that, although not enough to be usable. Older boxes use the first signals they find, rather than the strongest version. There should be a status screen somewhere in the menus which tells you which radio channel it's tuned in to. If in the C21 to C28 range, it's picked up Pendle Forest.

Also check whether there's a better version of the channels somewhere else in the programme guide - typically at around 800. If so, again it has probably tuned in Pendle Forest rather than Winter Hill.

To correct this, delete all the channels and manually tune in using the frequencies at the top of the page. If your box or TV has an automatic retuning function, turn it off.

You will need to redo this every time that the box needs retuning - whenever new channels are added, and when the retune to clear C61 and C62 happens (probably some time next year).

See also Digital Region Overlap for some more suggestions.

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Lee
Saturday 4 June 2011 3:59PM

Hi, Folks,

I live in Leyland and am in direct line of sight of Winter Hill, I have a Panasonic G20 flatscreen TV with buit in Freeview & Freesat.

I don't use the latter, I receive every freeview channel apart from this Movies For Men, channel 201.

I recieve all channels through a Technika TT-02 powered indoor aerial, I have no complaints with any of the channels I recieve, all HD & SD content is good, no break up or anything like, excellent signal strength etc.

But whenever I enter 201 in to the panasonic is says "Invalid Channel", doesn't even find it when I do a scan, usually the TV will display a signal saying new channels found.

So I tried tuning in channel 201 on the downstairs freeview box which is lined up to the outside ariel, that does find it and says will take 3mins to tune in, but it never does, just goes around in circles.

Any ideas?

MickDawn
Sunday 5 June 2011 4:44AM

Chris Rimmer:
Hi. My 40 month old Grundig GULENAR26HDIP tv has the problems you describe. I've been in touch with Grundig (actually now owned by Harvard International, tel 0871 2301777). The service bloke there told be the problem is due to different transmission modes being used (2k, 5k & 8k?) & that the tv cannot cope with it. This problem only started sometime in April & that Grundig (Harvard are working with Beko (who actually made the tv) to engineer a fix (possibly by OAD, possibly hardware). He did say to write to Harvard Internationals engineering department describing the problem & said they would get back to me. I’ve read a few posts on other forums (http://www.avforums.com/forums/lcd-led-lcd-tvs/1456113-grundig-lenaro-26-lcd-tv-freezes.html & www.fixya.com link icon

I was watching ch5 yesterday about 3pm when I pressed another...
)about other people who are having the same problem. Interesting that as more regions change to only digital the problem will affect more people (unless a fix is found).
Mick

Briantist
Sunday 5 June 2011 4:50PM

MickDawn: Yes, this is well known, see www.ukfree.tv link icon

TVs and boxes that do not support the 8k-mode | ukfree.tv - independent free digital TV advice - you now need to use a Freeview set-top box.

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Briantist
Sunday 5 June 2011 5:39PM

Lee: It's a bit hard to say without a full postcode.

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Stuart O.
Sunday 5 June 2011 10:16PM Wrexham

May: You don't say if you have a problem with your TV reception, despite Mike Dimmick's reply presuming you do have.

Are you just wanting to tell the world your Post Code and the location of you aerial?
Considering that's your first post to UK Free TV, I don't understand what you are getting at or what help you require by giving out that information.
Please explain. Thanks.

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Stuart O.
Tuesday 14 June 2011 9:41PM Wrexham

I've mentioned before that I live in a flat and the communal roof aerial is pointing to Winter Hill. In my loft, I have a tv set top aerial connected to an amplifier that receives excellent signals from The Wrekin, Sutton Coldfield and Lichfield.

For some strange reason, I have never been able to get a decent picture from having an outdoor aerial fitted in the loft yet I can get great pictures from a set-top aerial!
Why is this?

I have tried in turn 10, 32 and 48 element aerials. Using an amplifier makes the picture worse. I am using good quality satellite grade coax cable so why is such a little indoor aerial capable of giving better results than an outdoor aerial?
It's got me baffled!

I wanted to use an outdoor aerial in the loft instead of the set-top type because that aerial is mounted on top of some boxes to give it more height and improved reception which doesn't look and feel all that great or safe and an outdoor type would look better and thought it would further improve reception but this has not been the case.

Would anyone be able to tell me why I am experiencing such unexpected results?

Hope to have an answer soon.
Thanks,
Stuart.

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steven wallace
Wednesday 15 June 2011 9:04AM

hi , im having a problem with my fathers hd freeview box , he has a new digital aeriel with a clear view of winter hill transmitter. he keeps getting picture break up and losing the bbc channels , when i retune the channels its ok for 2-3 days and then the breakup starts . we are retuning the box every 3 days on average.

Mike Dimmick
Wednesday 15 June 2011 6:17PM

Stuart O.: If a set-top aerial works but an outdoor aerial doesn't, it's most likely to be down to getting too much signal from the outdoor type.

Go for a fairly small aerial, I'd try a 25 or even 18-element log periodic, and fit an attenuator to reduce the signal levels. Obviously don't use the amplifier!

Amplifiers - including the automatic gain control and the mixer in the receiver - can only handle so much signal before distorting. This distortion essentially creates frequency-shifted copies of the signal (intermodulation products) which interfere with the original signals. It's the overall signal level, the level from each multiplex added together, from all transmitters received, that is important. (Filtering is usually done after mixing, to put the selected channel on a specific intermediate frequency, as it's easy to tune the mixer but hard to tune the filter.)

The individual carriers making up one multiplex are 'orthogonal', deliberately spaced so this problem doesn't happen within one multiplex. Unfortunately the multiplexes are not orthogonal to one another!

The 'outdoor' aerial should still have better directional properties than the set-top, so you're still likely to get better results overall.

Theoretical signal levels can be calculated with www.megalithia.com link icon

Field Strength Calculator . For an aerial with 7 dB of gain, I get 70.4 dBuV of output from Winter Hill (100kW on C61 at a distance of 71.6km), which is more than the CAI's recommended level of 65 dBuV. The Wrekin (20kW on C23, 55.8km away) gives 69.7 dBuV. You lose some signal through tiles and rafters, of course.

Sutton Coldfield is 97.3km away but you do have line of sight, power levels are currently low at 8kW on C41 giving a theoretical 58.6 dBuV - that's still plenty for the box to decode. Post-switchover level will be 200kW on C43, giving 72.4 dBuV.

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Mike Dimmick
Wednesday 15 June 2011 6:18PM

steven wallace: Postcode?

A 'new digital aerial' is often over-specified for the job, leading to excessive signal levels.

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steven wallace
Thursday 16 June 2011 8:21AM Preston

mike dimmick.
postcode is PR2 6JR

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Mike Dimmick
Thursday 16 June 2011 3:44PM

steven wallace: At 20km from Winter Hill, with clear line of sight, too much signal is the most likely explanation. If there is a booster or amplifier, try removing it.

If that doesn't help, and this aerial was fitted by an installer, get them to come back and reduce signal levels, or otherwise do what's necessary to sort it out. If it was DIY, try adding an attenuator, and/or swap for a smaller aerial such as a log-periodic type, e.g. www.aerialsandtv.com link icon

Online TV FM DAB Aerial sales .

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Stuart O.
Thursday 16 June 2011 4:44PM Wrexham

Mike Dimmick: Thanks for that info.
I was able to try a 2nd set-top aerial like the one I've got that my parents no longer require and combine both aerials into the amplifier and it's giving better results again than just the one aerial!
With one aerial I was getting lines on the pic of Channel 5 from Lichfield. With the two combined, this has removed that problem.

I did try connecting each aerial into it's own amplifier and then combining but picture was slighly poorer.

I've also got each aerial mounted onto metal poles that were used for shower curtains and am using terry clips to clamp the poles onto the wooden beams of the roof trusses so at least they're no longer balancing on top of boxes and look much neater and safer now.

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Stuart O.
Sunday 19 June 2011 6:52PM Wrexham

Another question I have:
How do you count the elements of a TV aerial?

When you look at a 14 element aerial and compare it to something like a 32, 44 or 52 element aerial, there only visually looks to be roughly the same amount of elements.

These high gain aerials that are listed as 32 elements or more usually have elements in a 'X' shape fitted onto the aerial boom.

In this case, would each of these 'X's be counted as 2 elements or even 4 elements?

Would you be able to put up a labelled picture diagram and explain this please Briantist?

Cheers,
Stuart.

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KMJ,Derby
Sunday 19 June 2011 7:39PM

Stuart O.: A lot depends on the individual manufacturer. There was a time when an 18 element aerial meant 16 director rods, a dipole and a reflector assembly which could have been a single sheet of metal (as on a contract aerial) or set of two or four rods positioned behind the dipole. Today, a Blake DMX10 has ten X-type directors plus a single rod in front of the dipole and a reflector assembly with eight rods. A Triax Unix52 is a similar aerial but each 'X' director counts four elements and the reflector counts as eight elements, to arrive at the magic "52".

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Zippy
Sunday 26 June 2011 8:45PM

My digihome box is not picking up any tv guide info and will not record any series link programs as it does not know when to start and stop recording. Anyone know if the transmitter has stopped sending the info or is my box heading for the bin.

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Zippy
Sunday 26 June 2011 9:20PM

Sorry I should have put my post code in my last post. However I have used the old unplug it and plug it back in fix and this seems to have cured the problem. I think I will be getting a new box soon.

4 posts

Robert Lee
Wednesday 20 July 2011 10:11AM Buckley

I achieve 100% for both quality and signal strength when receiving normal freeview channels (with the exception of C55 which has a current signal strength of 80%).
However, when receiving HD on C54 the quality is only 70% and the signal strength 80%. Is there a technical reason why this should be the case and if so, is this likely to impact on picture / sound quality?

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Briantist
Friday 22 July 2011 8:58AM

Robert Lee: Unless your picture and sound stop, the lower signal quality reading will have no effect whatsoever on the picture and sound quality.

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arthur roe
Friday 29 July 2011 10:41AM High Peak

Trying for Winter Hlll direct no luck.Brother who lives nearby used to have more problems receiving Winter Hill.Now with the antenna`s I am trying to receive with, he has no trouble with antenna stood on garden wall. Why?

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Briantist
Friday 29 July 2011 11:36AM

arthur roe: You should be using either Ladder Hill or Whaley Bridge, or if you want more channels, Freesat. See www.ukfree.tv link icon

Compare Freeview Light and Freesat TV | ukfree.tv - independent free digital TV advice .

You cannot receive a Freeview service from Winter Hill.

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arthur roe
Friday 29 July 2011 2:48PM High Peak

Dear Briantist, I am using Ladder Hill,as I said earlier my brother receives Winter Hill at Buxworth[bad reception area] whereas I was in a moderate area when we were all on Winter Hill only.Freesat is the next option. Thank you.

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Briantist
Friday 29 July 2011 2:59PM

arthur roe: Moving a short distance can totally change the transmitter you can receive frequencies from, so that is no guide to you I'm afraid.

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Kieran
Friday 5 August 2011 6:09PM Bolton

Hi there,

I have just moved into a new property in BL1 6EL and I cant seem to get any signal what soever...is this area a poor signal area or should it be ok? I have tried the roof aerial and no luck (not sure if its connected as the house was previously cable) and an indoor aerial the Philex SLX digitop amplified one.

Thanks in advance!

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Briantist
Monday 8 August 2011 8:59AM

Kieran: You are in an excellent reception area, so I would check your aerial point is still connected to a rooftop aerial.

Indoor areas are unsuitable for reliable Freeview reception.

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Charlie Carruthers
Friday 19 August 2011 5:53PM

Dear Briantist. COM6 ArqB is "very low" at 1000watts. As an Ashton-in-Makerfield viewer with a piddling, but otherwise efficient, indoor aerial I look forward to its power increase which you informed me about a year ago would go at fullest capacity next month. Is this still on schedule? I hope they haven't changed their minds.

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Mike Dimmick
Friday 19 August 2011 6:24PM

Charlie Carruthers: It is actually at 12.5kW. It is still scheduled to go up to 100kW on the 21st of September, the same day that the channel clash with Sutton Coldfield is resolved (Sutton Coldfield completes switchover on that date).

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Jean Timms
Sunday 21 August 2011 10:52AM Coventry

Thanks for your help and comments on our lack of channels. I reported it to our housing association. I repeatedly re-tuned one of the televisions but still had no ITV channels. However, on Friday, all the ITV channels miraculously came back so presumably someone had been and sorted the aerial out. Thanks again.

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mrs l jones
Sunday 21 August 2011 11:51AM

cannot pick up any freeview pragrammes only analogue, but we are able to watvh t v via satelite in the living room, we have replaced the ariel applied a booster and we are not the only ones in our area having problems our postcode is DE110JD. I would be very grateful for any advice that you can give me

Andy
Sunday 21 August 2011 4:00PM Burnley

Hi everyone,
ive recently moved into my flat and purchased a new tv with built in freeview.
I noticed that there was no co-ax cable attached to the outside aerial, however there was a co-ax plug on the cable attached to the outside satelitte dish.
I plugged it into the tv's aerial socket and then i used the tv's automatic scan for channels.
i get a very good picture & signal on all channels apart from the bbc channels which sometimes is ok but signal breaks up when its raining.
My mate said that it shouldn't be able to do this unless i have a decoder or have the tv it connected to the outside aerial, so is he right or is there another explanation..?

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Sue
Sunday 21 August 2011 8:34PM Wirral

I have just purchased a humax pvr and unable to receive a channels from winter hill.I didnt have any problems with my previous Bush digi box,which was a lot cheaper than the new one.I know i am in a good reception area for Winter Hill so dont understand why i am having such a problem,can any one help me out?

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jb38
Sunday 21 August 2011 8:44PM

Andy: Well, what you are doing can be viewed as having similarities to someone using a metal coat hanger stuck into the back of a TV for reception when in a really good reception area.

The Pendle Forrest transmitter is the nearest to you at 3 miles away, Haslingden at 8 miles and Winter Hill on high power at 18 miles, so it has to be assumed that you must be in one of these areas where a pocket of intense signal is received otherwise what you are doing wouldn't work, because it technically shouldn't, maybe even a tad on the outrageous! (meant in the nicest possible way of course!)

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jb38
Sunday 21 August 2011 9:22PM

Sue: Indications are that you should be able to receive Freeview at about the same strength of signal from three stations, namely Winter Hill - Storeton - Bidston, although another two could also come into the equation.

Humax boxes generally have very sensitive tuners and this could well cause great problems in your area when carrying out an auto-tune, as Storeton might take up EPG1 for BBC, and if not that station Bidston or Moel-Y-Park.

The only somewhat easy way to avoid this happening being to first of all blank the boxes memory store, this done by removing the aerial and carrying out a complete retune.

Once done, keep the aerial plug in your hand and carry out another auto-tune whilst carefully watching the progress indicator travelling up from the starting point, this being where you need to be quick, because as soon as the progress bar passes channel 52 immediately insert the aerial, and that should then enable the box to load Winter Hill, its lowest Mux channel being 54.

That said though, Storeton Wales might still cause a problem dependant on if its reaching you with any strength, as its on Mux Ch's 57 & 53 (HD on 60)

If you do not get any success then manually tuning (and storing) each Mux in turn is the only thing you can do, Mux channel numbers to use supplied if requested. Another way is if you could tune your box at a friends house who can maybe only receive Winter Hill due to their location.

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Andy
Monday 22 August 2011 2:45PM

@jb38: Many thanks for your reply.
ive just done a test where ive got my old tv and connected it to a set top box via the satellite cable then connected the STB to the tv via a scart lead. Here's the result:
I get an excellent picture on all freeview channels.
According to the STB signal gauge i get the following UHF readings:
Channels 58,59 & 62 @ 100%
Channel 55 @ 50-65%.
I then connected my new tv with built-in freeview via just the satellite cable.
I get an excellent picture on all freeview channels apart from the BBC channels where it seems to break up now & again, maybe because of signal strengthquality..?.
This is a shame because i now will either have to invest in getting a new aerial set up or would i be better off purchasing a HD decoder as i already have the satellite dish & cable..?
Your comments would be most welcome, thank you.

jb38
Monday 22 August 2011 4:51PM

Andy: Well you still amaze me with this! but having been involved with RF signals (TX/RX) for many years I am fully aware that areas do exist where touching an aerial socket with the proverbial wet finger can give quite unexpected results.

The only bit that gets me is, that the aforementioned unexpected results is usually when only the centre pin / wire is connected to the socket, whereas "if" your co-ax plug is connected properly that would effectively earth the screen around the inside core from picking up anything, the whole point of the outer screen, and I am quite sure that the LNB doesn't play any part in what you are receiving. (famous last words!)

Anyway, it still indicates that you are in a "chosen" spot for reception from Winter Hill @ 18 miles away, as the channels mentioned are from there, and so even although I would usually always advise satellite (Freesat) any day over terrestrial, satellite for 99.9% reliability of reception, in your case a standard log periodic aerial would likely give great results, a link for same provided. (any one of the three shown would suffice)

Of course it might just be easier (and less costly) just to replace the aerials co-ax.

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Andy
Monday 22 August 2011 7:27PM

Thanks for the reply & link jb38, spent an hour having a good read on that site, very informative.
As regards to the co-ax plug it is correctly fitted so it's all still a bit of a mystery.
I think maybe a HD freesat box is the way to go because as you advise they have more reliable reception plus the HD channels.
I may also look into sorting an aerial out for backup etc.

jb38
Monday 22 August 2011 9:24PM

Andy: Well for reliability of reception it goes without question that Satellite is a better bet altogether, albeit of course its not near so convenient as Freeview as far as using in more than one room is concerned, both Freesat and Freeview having the same HD channels though.

Of course it all depends on whether or not your TV is capable of showing HD images via an HDMI lead?

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Richard
Monday 29 August 2011 11:04PM

Hi There I was just wondering will I need to retune again on the 21st September as COM6 ARQB will be going to go on full power.

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KMJ,Derby
Monday 29 August 2011 11:54PM

Richard: No need for viewers tuned to Winter Hill to retune on 21st September 2011, as Mux ArqB is already 64QAM 8k mode. The change will just be the transmitter power being increased to 100kW.

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Jon Rew
Tuesday 30 August 2011 10:02PM Northwich

Hi

I wonder if anyone can help?

We live in CW8 1SH and are connected to Winter Hill but we are struggling to get quite a few of the channels on our BT Vision Box

We don't seem to get channels 3,4,5,6,13,28,33,10, and 27

The house is brand new and we had a brand new aerial installed in the loft along with an amplifier.

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Liam McLoughlin
Sunday 4 September 2011 12:27PM Preston

Got my TVs integrated Freeview HD tuner plugged in to the communal roof antenna (postcode PR1 3NR) via the socket on the wall in my flat, and I can pick up everything on PSB1 (C62), PSB2 (C59), PSB3 (C54) and COM4 (C58). However, COM5 (C61) channels are completely unwatchable most of the time and have constant break up of the picture and audio. COM6 channels work most of the time, but seem to have occasional break up at some times of day. It seems odd that COM6 provides a better signal than COM5, even though COM6 is outputting at 1/8th of the power level.

Is there anything I can do to help this? I can't modify anything to do with the antenna on the roof, but is there anything I can do by the time it reaches my flat to help this?

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jb38
Sunday 4 September 2011 1:55PM

Liam McLoughlin: Well although I do suspect that this problem is most likely to be out with your control, as it could possibly be due to Mux Ch61 being interfered with by some distant transmitter, this due to the atmospheric conditions prevailing at this time of the year causing a signal to travel further than normal, something that's happening in some other parts of the country and likewise causing similar problems.

However, it would be beneficial though if you could try a signal strength / quality check on Ch61 at various times of the day, as this would be an indication of whether or not its normally running at a level reasonably above the cut off threshold of your TV (65%+ quality) or is just hovering above it, this making reception much more vulnerable to picture break up, although it should be said that the percentage figure mentioned varies quite a bit between different brands of sets, but it does give some indication as to what is happening.

PS: Even try a signal check on Ch61 should the picture completely vanish, as a signal level should still be there.

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Liam McLoughlin
Sunday 4 September 2011 3:23PM Preston

jb38: My TVs tuner won't give percentages, only bars on a scale of 1 to 10. For C61, I get a consistant 2 for signal quality, and 4 for signal strength. These two readings are whilst the picture/audio are breaking up. Error rate shows as around 3.5-4^10-2. Channels that show as signal quality/stength 4 on my TV are perfectly watchable (C55). C54 shows quality 9 and stength 7.

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Phillip Howe
Tuesday 13 September 2011 9:44AM

Is there a recommended bandwidth and number of elements please these days for digital aerials in the Preston area receiving freeview signals from Winter Hill?

The aerial is to go in a loft space if possible