Briantist:Box TV channels now available online - CMU Complete Music Update http://t.co/rgjyIdo0vy Briantist:Read this! You know you want to... is out! http://t.co/iZRMlAut0g ▸ Top stories today via @SEOSeanUK Briantist:Media Talk podcast Woolwich attack coverage and Boris ban lifted http://t.co/qe1Ag4afdQ yorkshirewander:RT @Briantist: New Google maps has some interesting bugs. you have to take a bus to get from Victoria Station to Victoria Station! http://t.co/I5bspH6UZR Briantist:Victoria Station #fail for new Google maps ... http://t.co/t7uCQruyDz Briantist:New Google maps has some interesting bugs. you have to take a bus to get from Victoria Station to Victoria Station! http://t.co/I5bspH6UZR mapperz:RT @Briantist: From the archive: Want to see where a point on a line of sight on a map? Click on UK Free TV! Here's another ... http://t.co/Mx19ptoKdb Briantist:From the archive: Want to see where a point on a line of sight on a map? Click on UK Free TV! Here's another ... http://t.co/Mx19ptoKdb Briantist:Now picks up Freesat advertising business - Advertising news - Campaign http://t.co/rSLGNsOWnZ Briantist:Read this! You know you want to... is out! http://t.co/iZRMlAut0g ▸ Top stories today via @TamworthH
I have added information to the UK Free TV database to cover the so-called mini-multiplex that will carry three Irish channels, TG4, RTE1 and RTE2 in a very special multiplex from three transmitters in Northern Ireland.
However, you will not be able to view these services using a standard-definition Freeview receiver - a Freeview HDbox or set will be required. It is not known at this time if the NIMM will carry RTE2 in HD, as per the Saorview service. TG4 and RTE1 are broadcast in standard definition at the moment.
Also, I reckon that a lot of confusion is going to be caused with those who have SD only TV sets, as they won't all realise that you can plug a Freeview HDbox into an SD TV via SCART and still be able watch the RTE channels.
Finally, I think that another DVB-T2 project such as this one is fantastic as it will help to push the already booming sales of DVB-T2 equipment even further.
Briantist: Brougher Mountain may not be planned to broadcast COM9, but Divis certainly is! Looking at the template at the back of Arqiva's 600MHz Reference Offer for Layer 9, it doesn't seem that C36 is as heavily restricted in the direction of Brougher Mountain as it is to areas to the south-west and west-north-west.
It looks like the practical antenna for C36 from Divis may well broadcast only to the north and east, though: it's specified as four tiers of two panels rather than the 8 tiers of four panels used for layers 7 and 8.
The question is, what other transmitters is that template protecting? Presumably it protects some radar stations in Ireland, as Ireland doesn't have any sites using C36 in the GE06 frequency plan. If Divis would cause too much interference (albeit at 100 kW) I would assume that Brougher Mountain would also be a problem.
Brougher Mountain is in the Layer 7 and 8 sets at 10 kW power, so I'd have to assume that 2 kW on C36 just isn't allowed. Other transmitters have been planned for reduced power on Layer 9 compared to Layer 8, for example Llanddona is listed at 20 kW for Layer 8 but only 3.2 kW for Layer 9. (Again, there's a huge bite out of the permitted template to the west.)
Hi all, to the powers that be, 1kw of RTE on Black mountain is a cop out. to say this will feed 80 90% of N Ireland is just daft! If im not mistaken Ch5 is transmitted from Black mountain which is poor in a lot of areas. This seems to be a feed Belfast arrangement as your reception will depend on where you are in relation to the Divis tower. So how do installers know what way to receive RTE and advise cutomers, it is now Feb and the DSO is months away and info on RTE mux is getting beyond daft. This info should have been sorted at least a year ago and to be totally honest its a running joke!
Iain the simple anwser is you wont as Saorsat will be transmitted on a satellite which uses the KA band and not the KU band which most satellites use. The KA transmission will have a spot beam ONLY on Ireland and not the rest of the UK. The reason is money. Ireland have to pay per population on programmes from say the USA, so if they are transmitted on Freesat, Ireland would have to pay for the whole of the UK population as Freeview is available all of the UK. Hopefully this makes sence
Briantist your recent thread has shed more light on whats happening on Soarview in the north than any so far!! but yes the south can receive all freeview/Sky/sat but the soarview signal in the north seems to be restricted. I mention this as customers are asking and the info anywhere is to say the least crap.
So months to DSO what do I say pay for a full rig for claremont cairn or wait to Black mountain starts. At this stage of the game I should have this info.
Peter Henderson: I have heard the same about the change of C53 to C52, and the removal of restrictions to improve coverage. I'm not sure if the restrictions only apply to the multiplex with TG4, RTE1 and RTE2 on it, or if other services will be available to the north. I would guess not.
I was thinking that there was more than one multiplex for Saorview, but actually it's just the one at the moment, I suppose once the analogueservices are turned off then there might be more multiplexes?
A second PSB Mux licence was issued to RTÉ in May 2011 by Comreg. The Dept of Communications requires RTÉ2 HD and RTÉjr/RTÉ1+1 to move to this mux when operational. There is no official start date for this mux yet - http://www.boards.ie/vbul…=312
A further 2 multiplexes are in the planning and coodination stage according to Comreg. Frequencies not known.
Clermont Carn is restricted to the north until ASO - http://www.boards.ie/vbul…451. The 2 PSB Muxes should be unrestricted north after ASO, any encrypted commercial multiplexes may not be (unknown at this stage).
After ASO RTÉ estimates 60% population coverage from Saorview transmitter overspill increasing to over 90% population coverage when the mini-mux is launched. Saorsat should increase RTÉ/TG4 coverage closer to 100%.
- http://www.rtenl.ie/wp-co….pdf lists the frequencies and powers used by Saorview transmissions at present. It appears (from comments on other boards) that they use 64QAM 2/3 8K 1/32 mode as used by the UK PSBs. The second multiplex is already broadcasting, but only carrying test loops. Ireland actually received 8 UHF channels per site at the Geneva 2006 Regional Radio Conference, they aren't short of frequencies. Some of the assignments were above C60, which will be cleared in Ireland as it will here. DTT was going to be mostly-pay in Ireland, as it was originally launched here, but the credit crunch hit them hard. Three different operators were awarded the licences before pulling out. They'd also be entering a market where Sky and cable providers are already hugely dominant; it didn't work here, where Sky's digital service and DTT launched at nearly the same time (although our low-power DTT and poor initial planning meant that getting all services was difficult for many viewers).
Carl: Different DVB-T and DVB-T2 modes require greater or lesser amounts of signal, relative to the noise and interference on that channel. The ratio required depends on how much line-of-sight is available between the transmitter and the receiving aerial, and the amount of reflected signal that arrives at the receiver as well. The specifications give three scenarios: direct line-of-sight with no reflections and random noise; mostly line-of-sight with some reflection; all reflections and no line-of-sight.
The mode selected for the mini-mux requires 10.7 dB less signal (compared to noise + interference) in the first case, 11.1 dB less in the second, and 12.8 dB in the third, comparing to the mode used for UK PSBs. That makes it approximately equivalent to a PSB transmission with 11.7-19 times the power. It still puts Black Mountain NIMM well down on Divis PSBs (which will be at 100 kW), but in the direction of maximum power, actually not far off COMs, which now require 1.5 - 3 dB more than (1.4 - 2x) the PSBs. Brougher Mountain's coverage will be at least as good as the PSB multiplexes and far better than the COMs, while Carnmoney Hill's will be much greater.
Briantist, Whilst in an earlier post you mention that the aerial group of the Black Mountaintransmitter is group B, this refers to the low power (and low down the mast) Divis Relay which covers the area where Black Mountain shadows out coverage from Divis. The C5 TX is at the top and although C37 is group B, it is also just within Group A feasibility. The RTE minimux if it comes from Black mountain will more than likely need to be in group for group A as it will be intended to cater for quasi-national coverage.
Brian, Mike and Cush, thankyou for your input on this site I must apologise if I seem a bit blunt when asking about the mini mux as for a year or more I have tried to find out what was happening as customers have been asking and I have been frustrated by different documents and lack of information.
It is a certain sign og progress on the political front in Northern Ireland when tv transmitters for Irish tv can be located within the six counties.When Claremont Cairn tv transmitter was under construction,24/7 security by Irish police and army was on site to guard against loyalist threats.Proximity to the border led to outrage from unionist politicans.Now it is wecomed.
On Wednesday 10th October BBC Two analogue will be switched off and BBC standard definition TV and radio channels will come on air. Two weeks later on 24th October the other three analogue channels will go off and the other digital services (UTV, ITV2, C4, E4, More4, C5, HD channels and some others) will come on air.
U: There was a bit in the Good Friday Agreement about television:
"...explore urgently with the relevant British authorities, and in co-operation with the Irish broadcasting authorities, the scope for achieving more widespread availability of Teilifis na Gaeilige in Northern Ireland"
Don't think there is a problem with Kilkeelrelay at the moment. The signal path length from Kilkeel to Dún Laoghaire is long and may be quite seriously affected by weather conditions.
Anyway, after DSO in October, UK Freesat would still be available. Here in NI the LIDL chain often do cheap Freesat kits.
In the early years of what Northern Unionists called the "Free State"BBC Radio broadcasting from Belfast had a huge listership south of the border.This was due to the fact that 2RN(RTE)broadcast for about 3 hours daily.The huge influx of correspondence from the so called FreeState upset the Unionist Government and the BBC was asked if overspill of signals could be preventedWhen Claremont Cairn transmitter broadcasting a tv aerial installion company was asked to erect an aerial at Unionist Party Headquarters to receive Irish tv.
This looks like a resourceful site, with some good techies on board... I had hoped to find more solid information about NIMM. Confusion still reigns for me at least.
The bit that confuses me the most is how to rationalise the notion that Divis will become the main source of DVB-T/T2 content in NI for the vast majority of its population so how then is the RTE content on the NIMM only applicable to Black Mountain, Carnmoney & Brougher.
I don't understand why NIMM doesn't have a place on Divis. What am I missing ?
I work in the IPTV industry so all of these spectral issue and other technical aspects of antennae planning don't really come into my field of knowledge - so please don't bamboozle me with umpteen RF related acronyms - or I'll be forced to retaliate with umpteen instances of IP jargon.
PaulN: The new Divismast's main antennas are not suitable as the coverage required is directional: 2kW in one direction, 1kW in another. Divis' antennas are omnidirectional, equal power in all directins. There isn't sufficient space on the new mast for the additional antenna required. I assume that the full requirements for the NIMM weren't worked out before the plans for the new Divis mast were submitted, or it would be too tall for Belfast Airport's flight path if the NIMM antenna were on there as well.
There *is* space, or will be, on the Black Mountain mast. Black Mountain was deliberately sited very close to Divis by the Independent Television Authority in the 1950s, so that viewers' aerials would point in the same direction for both BBC and ITA (i.e. UTV) signals, and a combo aerial for VHF Band I and III would be possible. VHF signals were shut down in the mid 1980s, but from 1997 Channel 5 used this to their advantage, sending out 50 kW from the top of the mast, rather than having to settle for a poor location much further down the Divis mast.
The confusion arises because Black Mountain is also a low-power UHF relay for BBC One, BBC Two, UTV and Channel 4analogue. The transmitting aerials for this are way down the mast, they are only intended to cover a small area which is otherwise shadowed from Divis itself.
For the standard PSB mode, 64QAM 2/3, about one-fifth of the power of analogue was believed to be required to give the same coverage. Some sources say one-tenth, and the experience seems to be that one-fifth gives a larger coverage area than analogue. For this reason, the commercial multiplex operators have decided to start using a higher-capacity mode, 64QAM 3/4, which requires 1.5x-2x the power of the PSB mode to give equivalent coverage. The mode selected for the NIMM requires less than one-tenth the power of the PSBs, or 1% that of analogue, to deliver equivalent coverage.
"I don't understand why NIMM doesn't have a place on Divis. What am I missing ?"
Originally Paul, it was to be housed on the old mast at Divis (Divis now has two masts) the new one being constructed for DSO and DAB radio. The old mast was to be retained for the NIMM and nalogue FM rdaio.
However, I've read elsewhere that the National trust has objected to the two masts being retained at the site. The old mast will now be deommissioned at some stage, so I assume this is why Black Mountain will be used instead (Divis was initially one of the proposed sites).
Ahh - some good info there... a couple more questions for clarification then.
1 - On the assumption that the RF mode of the NIMM needs 'one tenth of the power' - did I see it right that NIMM power from Black Mountain is touted at a paltry 1 or 2 kW - versus the shocking 100kW that I see forecast for DSO at Divis (I suspect that 100kW is a total for all the muxes - not each one or the sky would surely melt) ?
2 - Did I also not see that Black Mountain transmits with Vertical polarisation today versus the Horizontal from Divis - hence a 2nd aerial required - or is the NIMM planned to go out on Horizontal as well ?
Apologies if I am reading too much confusion into some of the headline numbers I have seen referenced on the site - this RF stuff is a mad black art but I have enough grasp of the fundamentals to still be confused. Lord knows how the average non-techie bloke or granny is going to get their head round some of the DSO issues.
I'm in Jordanstown and currently have OK reception of FReeview from Divis, even though the Carnmoney HillTransmitter is only a couple of miles away (I can see it from my bedroom window). Analogue reception of Clermont Cairn is also perfect, but nothing from Saorview (apart from placeholders that appear every so often). I fully expect Sarview reception to be perfect after 24th October 2012, hopefully.
I'm not so sure about the NIMM from Black Mountain though, but if what Mike and others say is true re. the technical paramaters etc. it should be OK. Failing that, I'll put something up for Carnmoney Hill if both Black Mountain and Clermont Cairn are rubbish.
The 24th October 2012 should be very interesting indeed and well worth waiting for.
If other DSOs are anything to go by, there's going to be quite a lot of problems with signal strengths being far too strong.
The Hannington transmitter analogue switch off is certainly interesting, judging by the comments.
I'm also getting reasonable reception from the Cambrett Hill transmitter in Southwest Scotland, including Freeview HD, which looks very good indeed.
If not, your equipment may still pick up transmissions from the Republic, depending on where you are.
At least, it will launch in October if RTÉ have selected a preferred bidder in time - because RTÉ are a state organization in Ireland, they must run a full competitive tendering process according to the EU's rules, they can't just hire Arqiva (the mast owner/operator) to do it. If someone else gets the contract, they then have to agree terms with Arqiva for access to the masts to get the aerials put up - though I think Arqiva have already started doing work speculatively.
@Peter - I am Larne area. Much of Islandmagee seems to have patchy coverage for Freeview from Divis today due to the geography, and much of Whitehead sits in a dip that will see most folk needing a dish for DSO.
I have never bothered to check if my house aerial is the correct type - the previous owner was a complete dullard / cheapskate so will have certainly applied no braincells to the solution. But I digress. Sometimes bad weather causes some channels to be heavily errored - usually on the BBC1/2 mux for some odd reason... must be the most sensitive / borderline to my hokey S/N ratio on the outer limits of Divis footprint.
Are you suggesting that SaorView signals will be receivable across NI cos I didn't think that was the plan - although its fair to expect some overspill near the border which folk might need a 2nd aerial to pick up.
I will perhaps investigate the Scottish option as well, though clearly I was looking in the wrong parts of this site to try and find the nearest Freeview mast across the water that will stay active for DSO.
I probably need to find a friendly neighbourhood aerial man to help with some tests as I don't fancy hanging off the roof waggling an aerial with a signal strength meter in the other hand.
So then... the plot thickens - in theory at least.
According to the SaorView site - parts of East Antrim should indeed be able to receive the signal from Clarmont Cairn.
As for the works required by RTE at Black Mountain for activation of the NIMM - is that to be done by professional DVB-T2 receivers/turnaround for the signal from Clarmont Cairn and then retransmitting the RTE channels into the NIMM or is there something more complicated ?
I very much doubt Saorview from Clermont Cairn will reach Larne Paul, even with the increase in power on October 24th.
If you're getting a patchy signal from Divis at present then things should be much better (if not perfect) after DSO. I'm not sure about the NIMM from Black Mountain. If what Mike is saying is true i.e re. the technical paramaters then you may be OK. I do know that some of the higher parts of Larne enjoy Freeview from Divis even now, so maybe a replacement aerial may help
Failing all that, the situation with Saorsat should become clearer over the next few months so that might be the better option, if you don't want to bother with the subscription service on Sky.
Scottish TV shouldn't be a problem with either the Stranraer or Portpatrick transmitters, although both are Freeview Lite.
My point Peter Henderson is while Welsh people were looking for ways to receive improved receptiono of Irish TV a mentality existed in our small island which sought to deny Irish people of stronger Irish tv signals.