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AlexThursday 2 December 2010 9:18AM
Strictly speaking, DAB signals can overlap, but the coding within the multiplexed signals is such that the receiver ignores the weaker signal.
The only difference this would make in the receipt of a local radio service is if you had a weak signal from your chosen transmitter (perhaps without a directional band 3 aerial for DAB reception) would be if that particular local commercial license hadn't been granted yet.
The problem with DAB is that it is still a 'work in progress', a bit like Freeview in the early days (i.e. when ITV ran it) and that will be the case for some time yet.
I should also point out that BBC local radio services are also available online through internet streaming AND the BBC radio player, the only real limitation on these is lack of some event coverage (i.e. football) due to rights restrictions, and that some of them are mono onlymichaelFriday 3 December 2010 9:30AM
Alex, thanks for that confirmation. This could become an issue here. Current data indicate North Devon and Powys will be on the same frequency. ND will be weak as just beyond
the target area. Distance and topography should make Powys weaker still. I may well need a roof-top aerial - and not be able to "go portable". Current AM and FM coverage are better!JohnThursday 16 December 2010 8:46PM
Sunderland hi i have had gold digital in my area and for some reason the owners of this station have replaced it and we can no longer receive it is there not something to stop owners from pleasing themselves what and where they broadcast.NedbodFriday 17 December 2010 5:33PM
Car manufacturers better get a move on then if the 2015 date is written in a tablet of stone. How many people do you know who have a car DAB radio. NO-ONE in my case. I had one which I left in my Toyota Corrola when I sold it, I was so disappointed with the sound quality and poor reception. Nothing in Scotland north of Loch Lomand & the west coast. I saw my old car recently and the new owner had replaced my DAB radio with a mobile phone system, but keeping the FM / AM / LW radio, says it all. SnooksSaturday 18 December 2010 10:01AM
Which car manufacturer is going to fit a DAB radio as standard and risk constant complaints from customers due to the poor DAB service area? I know of none of my friends that has a dab car radio fitted. FM works fine and nobody is prepared to take the gamble of fitting DAB at extra cost. DAB is rapidly becoming the poor relation. NedbodSaturday 18 December 2010 12:51PM
Spot on SNOOKSNedbodSaturday 18 December 2010 12:57PM
A tremondous amount to do then in just over 4 years. Especially with a fixed licence fee being spread even more thinly to cover BBC World Service and ITV Local News with inflation at +3%. Forgive me if I don't believe this will happen on time with no real public support and a poorer end result with many programmes going out in mono and or in poor sound quality that are currently in stereo (as a result of very poor bit rates) ....... and you call this progress. I am going to need a TARDIS soon to enjoy my radio & TVsteveSaturday 18 December 2010 4:46PM
Cars last over 10 years, and these days the car radio is a factory supplied inbuilt item.
So until all car radios have had DAB for nearly a decade people will object to switch-off.
ARE THERE dual standard DAB AND FM radio options for new cars?. After all, most still support FM and AM!NedbodSaturday 18 December 2010 9:02PM
Some of us object to switch off simply on the grounds of reduced quality and coverage anyway.steveSunday 19 December 2010 1:16AM
Hi Netbod - I object on that ground too.
In fact I am greatly confused what problem DAB and no FM is supposed to solve.
Indeed I have never been entirely convinced of the case for FM.
All I want on Radio is the Home Service at high power on 200m.
Talking of which, is it less powerful than it used to be? Seems so when I listen to the Test on LW recently.
My father (WW2 Lancaster bombers wireless operator) used to tell of it being unjammable even as far as Berlin when modulated for very slow morse with carrier on/carrier off.Karen ThorneSunday 19 December 2010 11:55AM
Could someone tell me whether there is ever to be consistent quality digital radio reception in the Hadfield/Glossop area? I replaced all my equipment during switch over but the radio reception is sketchy at best. Luckily I kept my old analogue radio. How do I raise the issue?Nedbod: I'm not sure how many times I have to point out that DAB coverage will match FM before FM is move to community use. Karen Thorne: Yes, you should expect better DAB next year.
Please note that the digital radio system has nothing at all to do with the television digital switch-over. steve: Very nice of you to object to other people having more choice. steveTuesday 21 December 2010 10:14AM
Brian - I am very happy for whoever actually wants DAB (who does?) to have it, so long as it is NOT at the expense of making obsolete every bit of equipment I have with an FM receiver built in.steve: I suspect you are going to be disappointed then. What is the problem with buying a few new radios, they are hardly the most expensive of devices. steveTuesday 21 December 2010 5:54PM
Problems
1) They are far from cheap - especially when I need a dozen.
2) They are incredibly power-hungry. My bathroom radio does several hours a day on batteries that last a year or two.
3) Several are built into other devices - ranging from a radiogram to an MP4 player - which would cost a lot to replace.
4) By all reports sound quality is bad.
5) And that's before we get to car radios, which these days are built-in to the car. Probably cost hundreds to replace.michaelWednesday 22 December 2010 9:40AM
DAB as an option, in additon to other modes,
would be fine for those who only want what it genuinely delivers. I hope it is not imposed, but know the upshot will be determined by political and commercial pressures more than public preference. The real concern remains that investment and running costs will inhibit coverage commensurate with FM and AM now. As with DTT "they" will claim everything is ever better and more glorious, even though this is not true for everybody. I like the look of the little ASDA DAB radio, which is probably viable on Ni-MH, so I might get one. Most DABs and internet radios do not have enough presets, which is a nuisance. Using a PC is better, but an overuse of resources. Our little debate goes round and round in circles, but is interesting. Most points raised are valid contributions. The bottom line remains : will we have a choice?Hi all,
There appears to be a campaign against dab going on at the moment which to be honest is not helping anyone, if it has been decided that is what we are going to have there is little chance of it changing, instead of trying to scare people out of buy dab, why not put pressure on the powers to be over subjects like improving the transmitter network, bitrates used etc. On this forum we have raised the issue of external aerial sockets which i personally feel should be fitted to all portable & housebound dab equipment (except personal headset type players) due to current reception issues (lack of network) in some areas. I also believe that at point of sale a postcode check should be offered / carried out to ensure the equipment being supplied is suitable for the reception level at the customers home.
With regard to sound quality i would estimate
that 90% of dab equipment sold (portables / mini systems etc) are not capable of sound quality approaching hi-fi & that is not what the majority of consumers are looking for, what i believe they are looking for is channel choice, ease of use & low initial cost.
Mark Aberfan Aerials NedbodWednesday 22 December 2010 12:13PM
steve, the HOME SERVICE was never on LW actually it was on MW only on different frequencies / wavelengths throughout the UK, it had changed its name to BBC Radio 4 by the time it moved to LONG WAVE.
Radio 4 is now on 1515m Steve, not 200m, it used to be 200kHz (1500m) but is now on 198 kHz (1515 kHZ) as all MW/LW frequencies have to be able to be divided by 9 kHz now (10kHz in the USA who have to be different).
I prefer listening in STEREO FM in Cheshire where the signal is excellent from either HOLME MOSS, LLANGOLLEN or SUTTON COLDFIELD.
NedbodWednesday 22 December 2010 12:21PM
Mark, anything that saves me having to spend extra money on DAB radios when I have 11 FM sets all working perfectly well & in REAL TIME with better audio quality using less electricity, giving accurate time checks and having lasted for years (unlike my DAB radio whichn has already packed in after five years of little use) is a plus and is helping me. I am not against change, provided it improves on what went before. DAB is not an improvement on FM, unless its bit rates are increased, as I still listen mainly to the original BBC channels. I note that the bit rate of ABSOLUTE RADIO has recently dropped from 160 kbps to 112 kbps (now less than Radio 1 & 2). WE ARE JUST GOING BACKWARDS WITH DAB. That is why there is such negativity towards it !!NedbodWednesday 22 December 2010 12:26PM
Mark I have been pressing the powers that be and the BBC to improve bit rates ever since they dropped them but neither government, broadcasters or OFCOM have taken a blind bit of notice in fact some channels have actually reduced bit rates further or for longer spells in the case of Radio 4 as more sport is broadcast on 5 Live Sports Extra and other BBC DAB channels. DAB will not cover all the geographical areas that FM AM & LW does, no way. It is blocked too easily by hills and coastal terrain. NedbodWednesday 22 December 2010 12:28PM
Whoops 1515m Steve not kHz sorry you've got me at it now.Mark Aberfan Aerials: There certainly seems to be a number of trolls who jump on any positive statement anyone makes about DAB.
It starts with the misconception that FM reception is in some way "perfect".
Which of course is isn't. It starts out being a mono service with two differential stereo sub-carriers. It is subject to both fading (where part of the signal arrives out of phase causing sound loss) and boosting (where parts of the signal combine to over do the sound).
It is also prone to the effects of reflections, and Doppler effects, especially when used for vehicular listening.
The input sounds is also subject to both audio (not data) compression, and the effect of the required pre-emphasis/de-emphasis.
And in-car listening is also subject to the effects of road noise, which are so considerable that you often can't hear the background hiss you get on FM when the signals are below an optimal level.
DAB addresses most of these issues, but you would think from the postings you see that people are listening from a noise-proof recording studio, or some other location where perfect reproduction can be provided.
DAB is not designed to provide "perfect" sound, it is designed to provide "adequate" sound quality, with a consistency that is impossible for most people to achieve with DAB.
Of course, if you happen to like Absolve Radio, XFM, BBC 6Music, BBC 1Xtra, BBC 7 and any other services that are not on FM at all, then DAB is not just an option, it is THE option.
There are problems, mainly due to the sluggish roll out of the transmitters in some key areas, as you say. This is what the government and BBC should be being pressed about.
Adopting a Luddite view is very selfish in the extreme. NedbodWednesday 22 December 2010 4:41PM
PERFECT OR NOT FM IS MUCH BETTER THAN DAB (certainly it is in Macclesfield), adequate isn't good enough when whoever decided on capacity made a total mess of it. There are plenty of unused Multiplexes why not open these up and at least give the BBC enough kbits to braocast all their channels at 192 kbps MINIMUM. We should not have to suffer LOWER BIT RATE = LOWER QUALITY POST LAUNCH. We are not DEAF, DUMB or STUPID !!
I do like BBC 7 but as all the programmes are repeats anyway I prefer to copy them onto audio CDs from Freeview IN STEREO at a higher bit rate than DAB and play them in the car at will !! IU am not a Luddite I am a seeker of the best quality possible, when with a bit of planning this could be made available. I do not want anyone to switch off a service until its replacement is at least as good. We have a fine example of this with ITV1 analogue, which was transmitted in far superior quality to post switchover Standard Freeview. No pixellation whatsoever and football matches where the grass looked like grass and not thick pea soup !!Nedbod: Why have you chosen 192kbps as your minimum? Just out of interest, why have you chosen this?
Is this mono, stereo or joint stereo? Also, just out of interest, as you didn't mention it and it is clearly an important part of the specification. Also, the BBC is clearly banned in law from owning another DAB multiplex. Just saying. Just wondering how you feel about a digital stereo system that uses 14 bits, with a 32kHz sample rate. I bet you would HATE such a system.
How would that compare with 44kHz, 16 bit of DAB? steveWednesday 22 December 2010 6:18PM
Mark Aberfan - Don't be defeatist. We have just got rid of ID Cards.
FREEDOM !!
DAB next.
Or rather, disruption of existing FM services that people are happy with next.
Let those who want to pay £63 per vehicle their family uses for a DAB/FM retransmitter do so.
Why 12 FM Receivers?
One per room of two different houses.Hi Guys,
I understand & agree that no one wants any system replaced by a inferior one be it tv or radio ! but i honestly think that hi-fi buffs are not the target audiance for dab, as net bod has pointed out freeview is a option & i would add that satellite is also a viable option much better suited to static hi-fi situations. Dab like fm before it is mainly for non hi-fi mass market portable devices which are non hi-fi situations.
Satellite radio has been a viable option even analogue sat radio was good (with good equipment) & digital satellite radio is very good even on cheap sky equipment. & as a bonus there are hundreds of satellite radio channels. Granted its not a universal solution but its a good alternative for those whose main concern is sound quality & choice.
Mark Aberfan Aerials And, as I was alluding to, the "14 bits, with a 32kHz sample rate" system is NICAM 728, which everyone seems to think is some form of perfection. It even uses companding, the worst form of audio data compression known to man. Mark Aberfan Aerials: The idea is that DAB will form part of a collection of digital forms of radio.
DAB for terrestrial portable and mobile: national, regional and local
DVB-T for terrestrial fixed: national only
DVB-S for satellite fixed: national only
AAC over IP for internet broadband (and some internet mobile): national, international, regional and local.
Each offers different levels of audio quality, channel numbers and user cost. There is a digital choice, allowing each transmission medium to be used as benefits the characteristics of the frequency band. steve: "One per room of two different houses."
That does rather seem to sum up your argument in seven words. Hi Brian,
Even though dvb-s is regarded as national, I would point out (to those who dont know) it has many local services.
Mark Aberfan Aerials Mark Aberfan Aerials: True, but they are not "all" on satellite, as you find with BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and other television stations.
It is the one advantage that DAB really has, is cost effective delivery of local radio services. Hi Brian,
Thats true but the choice is only surpassed by internet radio !
Merry christmas by the way !
Mark Aberfan Aerials NedbodWednesday 22 December 2010 9:13PM
I have chose 192 kbps as there is only one channel with an acceptable quality on DAB and that is BBC Radio 3 which just happens to broadcast both music and plays with this bit rate (most of the time) which to my ear is as good as FM.NedbodWednesday 22 December 2010 9:22PM
I have FM radios in each room including loos and shower and guess what, they are all in synch. I had 4 DAB radios Including one in the car a portable and one Pure Evoke 2 which has just died after just 5 years seldom usage + two Freeview boxes every one of which is out of synch with the other one, as is the Eurovision Song Contest when you want to listen to the sound on Radio 2 with the picture on BBC ONE (can't stand Graham Norton) unlike the UHF analogue days when Ray Moore (R2) was in synch with Terry Wogan (on BBC 1).NedbodWednesday 22 December 2010 9:28PM
I was informed by a BBC Engineer in writing that BBC Radio 3 DAB 192 kbps is in PURE not joint stereo, whereas all other BBC DAB channels that are stereo are 128 kbps joint stereo if this helps.
Why is it against the law to offer the only Uk broadcaster who even remotely cares about quality the capacity to broadcast them in the highest possible quality, which ****wit decided that, he should have several parts of his body removed, including his ears !!NedbodWednesday 22 December 2010 9:34PM
I have to say Mark most of the Freeview radio stations apart from the BBC channels are very poor audio quality indeed, even worse than their DAB equivalent stations, have any reduced bit rates recently.NedbodWednesday 22 December 2010 9:44PM
Steve - I picked up R4 198 LW in Jordan (1995-1997) and more recently in Venice (2008) at night with no difficulty. I even managed BBC Rqadio FIVE Live on MW in Venice too (693 not 909 though), possibly from Droitwich. I also got Virgin Radio in Ethiopia on Worldspace in 2003 before they pulled the plug on the whole system reducing a £140 radio to just FM & limited Short Wave. I didn't see that coming when BBC's Waveguide programme (presented by Simon Spanswick) convinced me to buy one on the BBC World Service in 1989.NedbodWednesday 22 December 2010 9:46PM
Or was it 1999 > more like it !!NedbodWednesday 22 December 2010 9:55PM
If Hi-Fi buffs are/were not the target for DAB, how come the first DAB tuners were the only available source of DAB Digital Radio when it launched in the UK in 1999, with the portable sets following a year or two later. At this time all available BBC channels broadcast with much higher bit rates than today - it's been downhill ever since. Having spent over £400 on my DAB/FM tuner you can understand my frustration when it is tuned 95% of the time to FM STEREO. I cry everytime the stereo light disappears from DAB, especially during THE ARCHERS, Dan would be turning in his grave, ditto Grace.Hi Netbod,
Like most tech, early adoptors pay a premium & top flight kit is the first available. I have noticed that dab tuners are pretty scarce with a lot of manufacturer not regarding it as hi-fi anymore.
I think you may have answered youself there, as bitrates dropped so did the perception that it is a hi-fi format which is why some hi-fi manufacturers no longer import there own dab kit into the uk.
As a dab owner, i would of thought you would of prefered to see dab become better with higher bitrates etc rather than condem it to the bin.
I can see why your pissed off if id bought into somthing & then the quality was reduced Id be annoyed too.
It would be like paying for a premium hd tv service & then finding over 50% of the output was upscaled & suffered from jaggies.
Btw I'm someone who still thinks a good analogue picture on even a cheap crt looks far better than sd freeview on a cheap lcd tv, I do sympathise, I just dont think the man in the street dosen't get any real say in the matter (the government needs to sell frequencies) so we might as well try to get the best service we can !
Mark Aberfan Aerials Hi,
sorry, double negative there ! it should read
"i just think the man in the street dosen't get any real say in the matter"
Mark Aberfan Aerials
michaelThursday 23 December 2010 9:36AM
Lots of lovely new postings. Great! My BSc makes me very pro-digital. I despair at the thwarting of good technology by politics and commercialism which threaten to leave us an uneven mess and a service worse than hitherto for many. Whilst on the pessimistic note, I wonder what provision for communicating to the populace in the event of a serious national emergency is planned. MW would allow for maximum coverage from fewest transmitters. 198kHz would be even better, but many radios no longer include LW. Maybe we will be kept informed by Radio Beijing on shortwave ...Nedbod: Just worth noting AGAIN that FM is not (by your defintion) "pure" stereo, it is the same "joint stereo" you don't like on DAB. steveThursday 23 December 2010 5:31PM
Can people listening in blind tests tell the difference?
steve: No, they can't. That's the whole point. michaelSaturday 25 December 2010 11:34AM
All DTT radio replaced in Scotland by Alba. See under Newsbucket on this page. Testing the water? Are there any figures for DTT-radio
listening? Will DTT radio be dumped nationwise in favour of another (commercial?) television channel? HiFi would still be available via webradio and satellite. DAB would become the standard for medium-fi domestic and mobile listening, with FM kept for areas DAB does not reach. Likely scenario?
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Asda DAB Radio | Audio Accessories | ASDA direct - why a single human needs 12 radios is beyond me. I've got one DAB radio and listen online otherwise.
PURE Highway In-Car DAB Radio With FM Transmitter: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics and needs no wiring. 
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