This is on top of the boxes that could not cope with the changes to the Network Information Table (NIT): Daewoo DS608P, Labgear DTT100, Triax DVB 2000T, Portland DP100 and these VCR/STBs: Daewoo SV900, Bush IDVCR01
Your comments are always welcome. Please use the form below to add your thoughts or questions to this page. We will get back to you as soon as we can.
Ken Friday 28 September 2012 3:34PM
Hi Dave and thanks for your reply. A seperate box would not help me though! Each time I switch the tv on it auto tunes.... only once today have I been able to stop this auto tune but realised we did not have all channels and had to tune again and since it has reverted back to auto tuning at power on! I currently have all channels and scared to switch tv off lol. I have spent most of the day searching google and on phone to Panasonic who said they have not come across this problem before! I can get all dvb channels and this problem of auto retune at power on has only come about since the final part of the switchover on the 26th.
Ken: Others may be able to make some suggestions. However, I make the following suggestion as something to try, something which you might not have tried. I'm not a TV engineer, but just throwing an idea your way.
Sometimes when TVs pick up more signals and store them than they have memory for, they "forget" some when powered off. This usually happens in areas where more than one transmitter can be received.
I wonder, "if" this is happening, and the TV is reacting to the fact that it has "forgotten" some channels by retuning.
Knowledge of your location may help work out whether this could be the case. Indeed, if your aerial is directed to a transmitter which uses high channels but are in an area where a neighbouring transmitter uses low ones, then it may even decide to go with the first it finds.
This describes how there is a manual tuning function for analogue, but unhelpfully, none for digital...
If the automatic tuning process indicates when it has picked up a multiplexes/channel, then run it and unplug the aerial after it has found one (any one will do).
My thinking here is that if the problem is its memory is getting full, then tuning one multiplex only hopefully won't over fill the memory. Once you've done this, power the set off (leaving it off for a period if that is what normally causes it to autotune on startup). Then power it on and see if the tuning sequence runs again.
If it doesn't and it appears to have rectified the problem, then let us know your location and transmitter and we will see if you can do a dance with the aerial lead to get it to tune in only those of the desired transmitter.
Hi Dave and thanks again for your reply, much appreciated. My postcode is dh8 org (pontop pike transmitter). Just for refference... I have done factory reset, tune without ariel and unplugged tv for a period of time. Searching google, I have read of people getting software updates to 2.4 since 2009 yet my version is only 2.36. I am waiting for Panasonic to get back to me and hoping a sofware update is what is needed.
I will switch the tv off now and see what happens then try what you suggest if the auto install happens.
Many thanks once again.
Hi Dave, Tv went into auto setup after power off, I removed the ariel during digital channel search after finding some channels and powered down only for it to enter auto setup again. I powered down during setup this time but it still goes to auto setup once powered on. I did not do factory reset during any of this!
Ken: I wouldn't be too concerned about not having the latest firmware. Newer firmware is brought out to fix faults. It depends whether any of these "faults" are acting to your detriment.
In any case, I'd be surprised if there is anything that can be done with regards updating it, officially at least.
It appears that you "may" be able to pick up signals from the relays at Shotleyfield and Newton. These use low channels and Pontop Pike uses high ones, so they could potentially be picked up and your TV might decide to use them as the "main" ones instead of Pontop Pike.
To avoid this possibility, run the automatic tuning scan with the aerial unplugged for the first 50%.
Ken: Whenever working on a problem like this, it is important to change something. Perhaps carry out a factory reset and then do it again.
This time, now we know that you are receiving from Pontop Pike, have the aerial unplugged for the first 50%, then plug in and unplug once it's found the first one.
If it still performs a retune on startup, then do a factory reset again, but this time attempt to get all Pontop Pike's channels tuned. Again, avoid Newton and Shotleyfield by unplugging the aerial for the first 50%, then plug in and leave it in.
If that doesn't fix it, then I'm all out of ideas. Others more knowledgeable than myself will hopefully be along soon.
Dave it is only the last 45 - 50 % of the tuning that picks up the channels also my ariel points to Pontop Pike (not sure if that matters?)and always thought Shotleyfield stopped.... We live in a valley and always had Shotleyfield as transmitter but for digital our ariel had to be turned to Pontop (I can see Shotley transmitter from my house yet Pontop is quite a bit further away).
Most times on setup it does not find "Dave", sometimes when it does we don't receive BBC1 or 2 however, after a couple of tunes we can get them all BUT regardless of whether we get all channels or not it contimues to go to setup on power on!
I have tried removing ariel after factory reset yet it still adds channels as "Unknown".... I will try as you suggest with the ariel unplugged for the last part of search.
Ken: If it is only picking up channels during the last half of scanning, then it isn't picking up Shotleyfield so there is probably nothing to be gained from unplugging the aerial (as there is nothing to avoid).
The fact your aerial is pointing the opposite way and opposite polarisation is probably enough to mean that Shotleyfield is not picked up.
If you have a set-top aerial and you can site it in site of the Shotleyfield transmitter, then you could perhaps, as a test, see if it will tune in to that.
After switchover these relays only carry Public Service (PSB) channels, so you will probably want to keep with Pontop Pike if you can. Thus, those who cannot receive from anything other than one of these relays get only PSB channels.
Hi Dave and thanks again, I really appreciate your help. I have done a factory reset and left ariel out on first part of search but once again upon power on setup is started. I have done as above with the ariel out during last part of search but channels are found as Unknown. It is only the latter 50% of search which collects channels!
Leaving ariel out for first part of search got me all channels but again upon power on starts searching again.
It's been a fantastic tv but at £2,500 you would expect it to be, sad that it does not see me through the digital changeover and will certainly think twice about spending that much on a tv again!
Ken: Although I have not had any dealings with your model its to my belief that this constant auto tuning is a feature (albeit dubious!) of this model and cannot be turned off, ie: not one of Panasonic's best idea's as it shows a decided lack of foresight with regards to how their equipment is used in real life situations.
Hi jb38, Thank you for your input. Strange thing with what you say is the tv has never done this before and I have owned the tv from new, some 8 or 9 years! Anyway...... late last night I rescanned and watched tv for a little while. The tv found all channels and when I powered on this morning it did not go into autosetup.
I have powered on and off a couple of times and so far it seems to be fine. I have no idea why or how but fingers crossed it has sorted itself out! I do have the onsreen "New DVB channels found" but have no intention of retuning and will switch that display feature of in the menu. I have all the channels I want and need so I am happy.
Ken: Yes, sorry about that as it was a bit misleading, what I had meant was that this set constantly scans for updated DVB services and that this scanning aspect cannot be turned off, albeit that the message on the screen can.
However the various procedures you have used has obviously stabilised the set, but you are certainly adopting a wise policy by refraining from attempting any further retunes as it might well start the process all over again, an annoyance which I feel could have been caused by a software glitch and which may now have cleared, but one never knows!
jb38: Ah yes sorry... this was going to an onscreen auto tune, something which has never happened before at power on. Anyway, all day today it has been fine! With several power on's and off's it has held the channels and never gone to the auto setup screen.
Hope u can advise...
Having big probs with Bush 1TB Freeview HD PVR which I just bought.
Have direct line of sight to Crystal Palace (4 miles away).
Using mini 5" rod aerial which works fine on other SD PVR and SD Panasonic TV (in fact having to use an attenuator on TV as signal too strong).
Bush PVR picture breaking up when I press Record (mostly HD channels).
Have tried attenuator (gets worse) and decent Telecam indoor aerial upstairs facing CP transmitter thru open window.
Sometimes works, sometimes doesn't (when it breaks up it won't recover, I have to switch off).
Despite my strong signal area, dealer claims cure is a proper outdoor aerial (quoting HD Bandwidth).
Before I do that, is this plausible or could I have a dud PVR ??
Thanks in advance,
Keith: If it only happens when the Record button is pressed then this suggests that it can't be a signal issue. Google terms like <<bush hd pvr recording problem>>.
Perhaps what the dealer said was that, as a matter of good practice, a properly fitted (outdoor) aerial should be used. This is because indoor portable aerials introduce a degree of uncertainty or unstability with the signal.
If you were to install a fixed aerial, then a DM18 will probably be the best as you have ample signal:
Many thx for the reply Dave.
Yes, the picture only breaks up when trying to record (dealer says I need a stronger/cleaner signal to feed the twin HD tuners).
I've already searched Google for a similar problem to mine (on any PVR) and have tried one suggestion of formatting the HDD to no avail.
The signal strength meter incorporated within the unit indicates about 80% and quality as 'Very Good' on all bands except #30 which is 'Poor' and 50% (??).
I guess I'm just gonna have to try a proper outdoor aerial (and will go for a small periodic log as u recommend).
Thx again for ur help and will post again with the result in case anyone else has a similar problem.
Keith: I'm not a professional so write purely as an interested technically-minded anorak.
With digital reception, the strength of the signal (as it enters the receiver) needs to be above a particular threshold, over which it will show a picture (providing that the signal is of good quality). Increasing the strength will provide no benefit to the quality of the picture.
With the signal above an upper threshold the receiver can become overwhelmed. This is like turning up the volume on a hifi to a level where the quality has gone because the sound is distorted due to the speakers being unable to cope.
So putting more attenuation in doesn't risk pushing the strength down too far.
You say it is a dual-tuner machine. Does the second tuner only start up when recording and, if so, is possible to temporarily disable this feature so that it operates with only one tuner? If the single tuner functions normally then this suggests that the issue isn't recording but the presence of the second functioning tuner which is resulting in poor reception.
Re attenuation, my Panasonic TV 'overloaded' after the switchover creating what seemed to be a weak signal - at first I thought a fault had devoloped, but after fitting a 6DB attenuator and mini aerial the TV behaved itelf again.
Unfortunately this doesn't seem to be the case with the PVR as even viewing SD channels will break up if I don't use the more powerful Telecam aerial.
The tuner seems very insensitive.
Whether both tuners are utilised when recording a single program I don't know - I always thought that would only happen if trying to record two programs (or recording one, watching another).
There is no option to turn one of them off.
I spotted a 'caravan 440mm mini log' aerial on ebay for £13 inc del (#330767738881), so will probably try that - if still no go then I haven't lost too much when I send the PVR back :)
I did have a tatty outdoor aerial before the switchover, but tore down / junked it when it seemed I no longer needed it (doh).
Keith: I'm not sure that it is necessarily the tuner being insensitive; it could be the other way around, it being sensitive to a ropey signal (probably caused by reflections) that the others are OK with. This is purely my unqualified thought - the way in which digital signal works means that reflections are OK but I wonder to what degree. Indeed, there are a few signal frequency networks in operation now.
You can get variable attenuators or perhaps used in conjunction with a 6dB one (or greater).
The aerial you have referred to looks to be the thing. The photo is that of an Antiference LP20FHV:
Keith: With regards to your recording problem, these Bush PVRs are manufactured by a company called Vestel, and although they far in a way outshine devices such as a Humax for their sheer level of user friendliness they are however not near so stable in performance as the latter mentioned by these boxes being extremely critical to signal strength levels, this applying to operation at both ends of the scale, and your report of the picture breaking up when you press record is something that can even be experienced in SD versions of these models when fed by a signal level that's bordering on being excessive.
It should be pointed out that in any area where high signal strength levels are experienced HD reception will always be first to be effected well before SD, and this applies no matter what brand of device is being used, but you have an added problem insomuch that your HD channel 28 uses a negative offset on its frequency as does COM6, (Film 4 / ITV4 etc) and although in more recent times Vestel have greatly improved their circuitry to get over this problem I have noticed on a few Vestel models that an element of instability (albeit slight) still exists when these devices are used on a transmitterstation with a negative offset on one of its mux channels, and this is over and above their susceptibility to slightly excessive signal levels, although this certainly does not help matters.
Of course being so close to a transmitter where the main beams from the mast are up to a point passing over your head nearly always causes problems with reception, as the signal is generally not arriving at the aerial from a definite direction but multiple angles albeit that one angle may well favour another, and with the best position for reception not always being the one that points directly at the mast as an element of experimenting is always the order of the day in cases such as yours, sometimes satisfactory reception can even be achieved with a short length of good quality coax being connected into the aerial socket of the TV or box and with a loop of wire of about 6" in diameter connected across the braiding and middle core of the coax at the other end, the loop being placed on a window ledge in view of the mast.
Still, these are just a couple of things that I thought that you should be aware of over and above the advice given by Dave Lindsay.
Thx JB38 & Dave for ur advice - much appreciated.
Yes, the unit is a Vestel T7650 - usability is great and I would love to keep it - if only I could get it working properly !!
In my efforts to do so, I have tried to find a firmware upgrade (to v1.49) in the hope that might fixit.
Unfortunately it's not available anywhere to download so will have to wait until the next OAD.
Checking the units onboard signal strength/quality, I notice that all is well apart from channel #30 which I have now discovered contains all the HD channels from CP.
Signal quality fluctuates between Poor & None...
This must be the hurdle I have to overcome - I've now tried everything from different aerials/positions/attenuators (feels like I've gone back to the old analogue days), but nothing improves signal quality.
btw, I'm in an elevated position and can actually see the CP tower from upstairs rear window.
Have ordered an outdoor aerial and new coax cable, so if that doesn't work I'll give up and send it back...
(mebbe get a TVOnics instead)
Keith: On reading your posting I just realised that I had mistakenly typed in Ch28 instead of Ch30 when referring to your HD reception, and which I apologise for and hope that it did not cause too much confusion, Ch28 obviously being COM6 the other offset frequencychannel that I had referred to and which I noticed you report as being OK.
Yes, you should keep your eye on the Vestel website (albeit an Unofficial one) for any possible software updates for your box, although I see that one (the first) was made on Nov 1st 2012 connected to recording facilities, but with regards to any possible replacement have you not considered the Humax? as these are technically superior to any other box as far as their tuner circuitry is concerned and nothing touches them as far as stability is concerned, although I do fully realise that they are in the higher price bracket for Freeview PVR's.
But though even with their technical superiority I will agree that nothing really beats Vestel menu systems for sheer ease of use and the rapid response times for any commands made on the remote control, one of the boxes I have installed being a Vestel and the one favoured for use by my wife over any of the two Humax PVR's I also use, these tuned to two different stations as my reception suffers from seasonal changes, a third Humax being used for Freesat.
Anyway, I would be most interested in reading an update from you once you have tried out the new aerial, but should by any chance this prove unsatisfactory then you should try the loop aerial I suggested before giving up as the loop type limits the amount of RF that's picked up provided that the coax is good quality (thick) as far as its braiding is concerned.
Just in case the site I referred to isn't the one you are meaning this is a link to it, although the DRG's download site is really the one that gives dates / times for OA downloads for TV's and boxes.
Keith: Well yes, I can quite believe that this box has been given favourable reports and indeed is possibly superior to many of Vestels earlier types, but though the problem with these type of reports is that they invariably have been made as the result of the box being assessed when used under standard reception conditions and not one where excessive signal levels were liable to have been experienced, because its only when a TV or box is operating under these conditions that any deficiencies that might exist in the RF circuitry side of the device will show up, and problems caused though RF instability can have a wide range of symptoms, but though in my opinion one of them being your recording problem, as I have observed this exact same fault occur on previous non HD models (using different chassis) when used under circumstances such as described.
I personally would dearly love a chance to carry out some more detailed tests (with instruments) on the circuitry associated with the recording side on these boxes when it was being used under "real life" excessively high signal level conditions, (it being a very difficult to simulate type of situation even when using more sophisticated test gear) and although unaware if you are technically inclined, but I do have a suspicion (or educated guess!) that when the recording side of the circuit is activated an element of RF instability is being introduced into the PCB's common earth rail and this is causing a slight potential difference to occur from one end of the common rail to the other, and because other sensitive parts of the circuitry (inc tuner) also uses this rail its possibly this that is causing the problem. (thicker earth tracks possibly being required)
Of course it would be interesting to know the result if the box was tested out in a more distant location, as I strongly suspect that the problem might not show up.
Well, the aerial & cable arrived today, so I've been having more fun trying to get this Bush PVR to work properly...
For the first time I've seen HD Signal Quality reported as 'Very Good', but only after the PVR is switched on...
Frustratingly if I check a different (SD) channel and then go back to #30 it will report as 'Poor' again !!
I also found/tried a loop aerial (from an old portable TV) and that (surprisingly) seems the most reliable.
(thx for the tip jb38)
It works best mounted 4' from the ground in the back garden.
Sadly it's still hit & miss - picture breakup can occur when I stop recording !!??
I have now tried 5 different aerials in different locations with/without attenuator/s 6DB & 12DB.
Every possible combination ends in failure - either stuttering or 'Signal not strong enough to record'.
(also tried restarting / rescanning and siting PVR away from other equipment)
Signal strength has never been an issue - new aerial will go to max without attenuation, but signal quality continues to remain elusive.
So I think it's time to give up, there must be summat wrong with the unit :(
Keith: Many thanks for your latest up date and with the content of being most interesting, especially the fact of the loop having up to a point given reasonable results, and although a bit late in mentioning it now, but when I first mentioned about trying a loop I should also have added to try some tests with the loop being made in different diameters and possibly by starting slightly less than what it presently is. I do realise that this type of aerial is in no way matched to the frequencies used by the transmitters but that is something that isn't wanted anyway, as the idea is just to sniff an element of the signal and not receive it at any great level, which of course would happen if it was matched.
But though I really do feel that the Vestel chassis is the source of the problem as the basic fact remains, being that in areas where iffy reception is not being caused by low signal strength but quite the reverse, then this type of situation demands a highly stable receiver being used, this requirement being unfortunately where Vestel chassis devices do not really come into the equation.
But as a final on this, you should try a loop of about 4 inches in diameter noting the results, then try another about 8 inches or so in diameter, once again noting the results and giving an update on what you had found.
Well I took the Bush back to the shop and it was replaced with a new one.
To my initial dismay it still showed Signal Quality as 'Poor' when cycling back to channel #30.
Thought I may as well try recording HD and all seemed to go smoothly (for the first time ever).
Impressed with this (and not trusting the builtin signal meter), I tried recording with the portable 4" rod aerial.
To my surprise that also went smoothly on all HD channels, tho if I moved around the room it affected the pic slightly.
I have now wired the loop aerial under the roof eaves outside and pleased to report that the unit is behaving faultlessly without attenuation (Signal Strength reported at max, but seems to have no detrimental effect).
I also noticed that iPlayer now works (it didn't before) and the 'Lib' button actually brings up the Library (it didn't before - I had to go thru Menu).
The PIP button still doesn't do anything, but I think that's there for a possible future OAD update.
(it is still on the old firmware - same as the other one)
So it transpires I did have a faulty unit as suspected and tho I wasted money on a new aerial, I'm just happy that the PVR is now working as it should.
Keith: Thanks for the update and pleased to hear that the replacement box plus the eaves mounted loop aerial seems to have cured your problem, although I do have to say that its not necessarily always the case that your old box had a definite fault as such (in general terms anyway) but was just less stable than your replacement, the reason for this being the possibly of it having had minor alterations (addition of one or two components) made to its PCB circuitry to improve performance, the problem with manufacturing changes like that being that they are not always documented very well in the service data of well known brands such as Sony / Panasonic etc let alone Vestel who can have three different PCB variations under the same model number (T835 chassis) albeit admittedly that this is known about by service depots but not necessarily the purchaser.
Of course this is neither here nor there, as the main thing is that you will not now have to sacrifice the convenience of using a Vestel's excellent menu system for the sake of purchasing a more stable device but with a somewhat less user friendly system, which regrettably to say, as used by Humax devices.
Keith: Also meant to say, that the only reason I mentioned about the possibility of your box being basically the same but with a minor addition to its printed circuit board (PCB), was because of you having observed that the firmware on the new box was exactly the same as on your old one.
Of course additions made in this way are quite commonly experienced on all brands of equipment, the give away always being that if a PCB is carefully inspected on both sides and a component is seen soldered onto either the track side of the board, or alternatively is seen piggy back soldered onto another component on the main side of the board, then this is "always" done because a problem has been experienced with the value of the component chosen by the designer.
Keith: Yes, I fully agree with what you say regarding the HD version being somewhat sluggish in operation, this basically caused by the processor being stretched to its limits in the same way as experienced on some older PC's when a more complex task is attempted, of course the Vestels deficiency will be made to appear even worse by you also using a Sky HD box which has the latest circuitry, but you are quite correct about Vestels SD versions insomuch that any commands that might be made on the remote control gets an absolutely instant response.
But you should keep your eye on the DRG's download site as I feel that its on the cards that a software update will be made for that chassis at some not too distant point in time, of course the only thing there being that some of Vestels updates can have an element of hit and miss attached to them, but though that can also apply to more than Vestel devices.
Anyway I'm pleased that the replacement box turned out OK, because in my experience once anyone has used a Vestel boxes menu system for a short time they generally get spoiled for using any other Freeview device, and although I have always been an admirer of Humax devices this is purely on their technical merits connected to the devices reception abilities, and most certainly NOT their long winded menu systems.
Cheers / jb.
PS: I know what you mean about the a boxes hard drive capacity getting rapidly used up by other than yourself, as I noticed that one of my PVR's HDD has been loaded up to 92% of capacity with dozens of Flog it's / Bargain hunts and Dickinson's real deals, I really will need to delete the series link, albeit this being done in a subtle fashion!
Due to personal issues i now have to start again with two kids and managed to pick up a Sanyo CE32WN7-b very cheap, the sound works great when watching dvd however when plugging in freeviewbox can get great picture but no sound, if you turn up volume on both really loud you can faintly hear the audio. Any ideas the tv menu is very limited